India struggles to catch China (BBC news)

[inkink]

Slash,

You have totally misunderstood Japan's role in Taiwan. Japan has no legitimate claim over Taiwan in any way shape or form. In fact Japan itself has never made any claim on Taiwan ever since the end of WWII.

Not only that, the Japan-Taiwan relationship is a complicated one. One one hand, some people view Japan as a friendly democracy. On the other hand, many people still have painful memories of Japanese occupation. In fact you may have heard about the territorial conflict over the Diaoyu Island between China and Japan. Some Taiwanese are a lot more vocal than even Chinese in their advocacy of CHina's sovereignty over the island.

[observer]

Here is a wild idea but I want to know what you guys think: In my mind, India simply does not have the capability to solve the Kashmir/Pakistan issue militarily. Look, if the US has no effective means to stop the Iraqi insurgency and Israel cannot eradicate even Hamaz not to mention Hezbollah, how possible is it that India can stop Islamic terrorism with military means? On the other hand, with India's success in the IT service industry, why doesn't the Indian government invest in Kashmir and get into some joint-ventures in Pakistan? Ultimately people all want to make a good living. When people start believing they can have a better life with dignity and decency by typing keyboards rather than pulling triggers, violence will stop and peace will prevail.

India never wanted or wants to solve any problems militarily, not even Kashmir. It is Pakistan that has always made military thrusts into Kashmir while India defended. Kashmir left to India without Pakistani interference will develop like any other Indian state. And Kashmiris should understand this too and embrace development rather than the gun. But unfortunately Pakistan isn't too bothered with development it appears and just creates troubles always and the Kashmiris tow their line. It's really a matter of driving the whole idea into the brains of the Pakistanis and Kashmiris that talking with guns only stifles development.

So I hope some political solution is found without violence and Kashmir develops like Ireland today which having overcome decades of a lot of violence is another IT powerhouse in the world!

[India1989]

Here is a wild idea but I want to know what you guys think: In my mind, India simply does not have the capability to solve the Kashmir/Pakistan issue militarily. Look, if the US has no effective means to stop the Iraqi insurgency and Israel cannot eradicate even Hamaz not to mention Hezbollah, how possible is it that India can stop Islamic terrorism with military means? On the other hand, with India's success in the IT service industry, why doesn't the Indian government invest in Kashmir and get into some joint-ventures in Pakistan? Ultimately people all want to make a good living. When people start believing they can have a better life with dignity and decency by typing keyboards rather than pulling triggers, violence will stop and peace will prevail.

Just my two cents.

If India wants India can solve the Kashmir issue in 2 weeks militarily just like it did in 1971. But India is a peaceloving country. India believes in peace more then any other country in the world. So India doesn't attack anyone. India could've occupied the whole kashmir in 1999 itself but India refrained from crossing the LOC.

And about your last sentence let me tell you, when you are being attacked its better to pull trigger rather then getting killed.

And yeah to what choo said, there are many things wrong in that article. India got sanctions more then China did. Who said India didn't get sanctions for 98 years. India got sanction in the year 1998 for testing nuclear weapons. But still India didn't move back and from that time onwards India's real development started. India made all these satelites by itself with no foreign help.

WHen British left India they took all our resources and all our things. Atleast China didn't lose their resources. According to the estimates the amount of thing Britishers took away from will amount to UK pound 1 trillion according to today's value. Can you imagine what would happen if we have those money now.

[India1989]

- What, from the Hindu perspective, is the ultimate reason for terrorism in India?

The ultimate reason for terrorism in India are many. Pakistan fought 4 wars with us and lost all four. But they somehow want to take away kashmir from us. So the only way they could do this is by hiding and attack and by the means of terrorism. So Pakistan funded terrorism. The ultimate reason for terrorism in India from the Indian perspective(not only hindu) is that they are jealous of India and Pakistan wanting Kashmir back and Islamic terrorist thinking that Hindus are oppressing Muslims in India.

- What goals do these terrorists/bombers want to achieve?

The aim of these terrorist is simple. They want to balkanise India and make India bleed so bad that they give up Kashmir and accept defeat. They want to not only take away Kashmir but also take away Punjab, Nagaland, Assam, and two huge parts in north India and South India which will be made homeland for Indian muslims which will be a separate country. They want to destroy us.

- In your opinion, are these achievable by what they are doing now? Are these goals achieve by any means at all?

Well this question is hard to answer. By what they are doing now the spirit of India is rising and they can't separate us. But if they increase their works and Indian govt. doesn't take any action then it is quite possible. ANother main reason is because India is divided. THere has been Hindu-muslim, Hindu-sikh, muslim-christian riots in India before. So we have to be united. But i would say that it is very impossible. I hope its impossible. I don't want to be so sure. I don't want to be overconfident and underestimate the terrorists.

- If you are the policy maker, are you willing to make some consessions to have peace?

If i was a policy maker i would never go for peace now. HOw much more can India take. An attack on 2 of our temples, on the largest mosque of India, on India parliament, on Indian trains, buses, hijacking of our planes, breaking our unity. We should never let this escalate. We should act fast and when we act we should act hard.

- What role do you think India will play in Asia and globally in another 50 years?

India right now doens't play that a big role. I think China plays a bigger role in Asia. But in coming 50 years India will be one of the major role players in Asia and also in the world.

- How would you deal with Pakistan? What do you think the India-Pak relationship will be like in 2050?

I would deal hard with Pakistan. I would attack them and show them that they have terrorist camps in POK. Once we get the POK then i will stop attacking. But still before attacking i will give them ultimatum. if they don't agree then i would attack them. They are playing a cold war with us just like USA did in USSR. I would play a cold war too and fuel the uprising in Pakistan. in 2050 there will be no change in our relationship. They will never learn to live in peace.

- What's your view of the current conflict in the middle-east? What would you do if you were Ehud Olmert? What would you do if you were Fouad Siniora? What would you do if you were Condi Rice?

Current conflict in middle east is no suprise. They are always in a mood to fight. They can never live in peace. i have no idea of what i would have done in Ehud Olmert or Fouad Siniora. But if i was COndi rice then i would kill myself.

- What's your view of the currently very tense China-Japan relationship?

Right now i think it has no chance of esaclating into a war. But i would ask Japan to cool down cause their military is not that a match to China. I basically have no idea about the tense relationship.

- Do you like Chinese food?

Yup i love Chinese food but Indian style. Chinese style is too bland. Indian style adds more spices and i anyways love them. THey are great.

- Have you watched any Chinese movies? Including Hongkong or Taiwan movies?

Hats off to Chinese movies. I have watched few and I love them. I think Chinese movies are equally a match to Hollywood. THey are fantastic. I simply love them. They are very touching.


PS: My answers were unbiased and have referrence to many newspaper and articles. The opinion questions are my opnions though.

Before any Indians disagree with my answers i would like to say that some are my opinions and you can't change it and some are facts which also you can't change.

[yyzrush]

First of all I am a noob here....
Second I doff my hat to all you guys.Out of all the forums I have visited I am yet to see one which has so much of intellect and depth in the discussion.It is just not another mud slinging debate.
My question to everyone is " Is it fair to compare India and China?One a democracy another a communist.One which gave Buddhism and the other who followed it?
Little did this correspondent know what a debate his article will ignite.Just Google this topic and you will see what I mean.
I have been to both countries and I have seen the ups and down in both countries.The positives of is the negative of the other.Precisely why I feel both are progressing but in their own stride and direction.The path taken is different and so this comparison is not fair?
I like the infrastructure/the facade/the nice outlook of China.
I like the free spirit of the Indian People.The philosophy that they so readily share and follow(You will know what I mean when you speak to one).Above all I like Indian wome if all of them look like Priyanka Chopra/Shilpa Shetty(I wish I could befriend one).It seems Chocolate is my obsession and the Indian women being chocolate tastes the best.

[Silverbackman]

The reason why India is behind China right now is because China finished reforming their market system to a more capitalist system. India still needs make their nation capitalistic and then India will easily surpass China. China has a nedge because it is more capitalistic.

Did youi guys know in the early 1980s India was ahead of China in GDP and per capita. China was still very repressed from Mao's socialist policies but by later 80s China reformed quickly. China still has long way to go before becoming like Hong Kong but they are doing good.

The only way India can become a major player is if they completly abolish all these socialist programs and become mroe capitalistic. Then China will stand little chance. India has a huge population boom and a large young workforce while China's "one child policy" is dooming the country to begin with. All India needs to do is become more capitalistic.

[India1989]

yup china's sure doing good.

[Jonathan]

So what do they say in this discussion. I really want to know.

They were having a long, rational and diverse Chinese discussion on the merits of democracy for China to continue its economic development. The majority supported democracy, but differed on its implementation and the timing. No one was insulting the Indians in the discussion. Yes, we Chinese are not closed-minded communists. We are well aware of the faults of our country, but we also realize there are many merits to our system.

The Chinese are results-oriented people. We believe in whatever that works. If capitalism works, then we will embrace it. This is the basis of our mindset.

[snower]

Jonathan , 不能同意你的这个观点 :
The Chinese are results-oriented people. We believe in whatever that works

中国自古就有 “义” 与 “利” 之辩。 主流中国思想是重义而轻利的。 你这样说完全是把中国文化给庸俗化了。 自邓小瓶以来的实用主义思想， 不过是伟大的主流中国精神之外一种补充， 一种“权宜”， 而不是中国文化的本质。 We believe in whatever that works ??? 这不是有奶就是娘吗? 这样说。 置文天祥于何地? 置伯夷叔齐于何地?

[Jonathan]

Jonathan , 不能同意你的这个观点 :
The Chinese are results-oriented people. We believe in whatever that works

中国自古就有 “义” 与 “利” 之辩。 主流中国思想是重义而轻利的。 你这样说完全是把中国文化给庸俗化了。 自邓小瓶以来的实用主义思想， 不过是伟大的主流中国精神之外一种补充， 一种“权宜”， 而不是中国文化的本质。 We believe in whatever that works ??? 这不是有奶就是娘吗? 这样说。 置文天祥于何地? 置伯夷叔齐于何地?

In Chinese civilization, the king is always before the sage, although the sage is more famous (and romanticized). Also, a sage only becomes famous when his ideas work under the implementation of the king.

Ideology has always been in the back burner. Many leaders of the Communist Party during the 1950s had a very poor understanding of Communism, most could not summarize Das Kapital or Tolstoy. They just wanted to get the country united and working, and the simple slogans of Communism worked in achieving that, at least initially in the 1950s.

You should read this BBC article again. The basic generalization is that China works, India doesn't. The reason is simple, results come before empty ideals. Ideals may serve as a guide in our implementation, but it should never be used to substitute failure. Failure is failure is failure, regardless of how you color it. Biological life is Darwanian, why shouldn't society be also?

My interpretation has always been that we Chinese use ideals to justify and implement the results we seek. In this sense we are very American. Look at the American neoconservative (新保守主义) movement. The Americans thought neoconservatism was a good idea, but ultimately it was a failure in that it cannot be effectively implemented. The idea was a failure. Iraq War has been a failure. Consequently, the American people adjust their beliefs and elect the Democrats to Congress. Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution were Chinese failures, we Chinese have denounced them today and moved on. We are adapative and we should always remain adaptive. The goal is to strengthen our country, make China a leading economic, political and militarial power in Asia and the world.

[snower]

夥计， 大概同印度人相比， 中国人是比较功利一些。 但是和西方人和日本人比起来， 中国人是比较泛道德化的。 中国的文化大概介于这两者之间 吧。中国的模式经常是“道德为体，功利为用”。 一阴一阳， 对立统一。比如当前的“社会 主义为体， 资本主义为用” 的社会模式， 呵呵。  另外，&# 32;还是不同意failure& #32;is failu re 的观点。 文天祥的死， 是失败还是胜利?& #32;蒙古人不能降服文天祥， 只好杀了他， 是失败还是胜利? 恐怕 不能简单的回答。 蒙古人的帝国今安在? 罗马人， 匈奴人的呢&#63 ; 而中华绵延万古。西方和蒙古日本信奉丛林法则， 纯以功利行事， 是至阳之道 。 印度人是冥想不干活， 是至阴之道。 中国的长处是中庸， 所以历久不衰， 前程远大。 可见，  只有理想主义是不够的， 但是没有理想主义， 也是不行的。�

[Kidd Lean]

Chinese is friendly

we all love peace, and friendly to all countries.

[Neo]

In Chinese civilization, the king is always before the sage, although the sage is more famous (and romanticized). Also, a sage only becomes famous when his ideas work under the implementation of the king.

Ideology has always been in the back burner. Many leaders of the Communist Party during the 1950s had a very poor understanding of Communism, most could not summarize Das Kapital or Tolstoy. They just wanted to get the country united and working, and the simple slogans of Communism worked in achieving that, at least initially in the 1950s.

You should read this BBC article again. The basic generalization is that China works, India doesn't. The reason is simple, results come before empty ideals. Ideals may serve as a guide in our implementation, but it should never be used to substitute failure. Failure is failure is failure, regardless of how you color it. Biological life is Darwanian, why shouldn't society be also?

My interpretation has always been that we Chinese use ideals to justify and implement the results we seek. In this sense we are very American. Look at the American neoconservative (新保守主义) movement. The Americans thought neoconservatism was a good idea, but ultimately it was a failure in that it cannot be effectively implemented. The idea was a failure. Iraq War has been a failure. Consequently, the American people adjust their beliefs and elect the Democrats to Congress. Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution were Chinese failures, we Chinese have denounced them today and moved on. We are adapative and we should always remain adaptive. The goal is to strengthen our country, make China a leading economic, political and militarial power in Asia and the world.

Nothing is worse than half baked philosophy. Unfortunately you have poured lot of that here. First let me counter your points and then we will approach your "ideal" grounds.

you say china works, india doesn't. Well let me rephrase, china works like UK works but India works in its own way. Tell me what parameters you use to justify that India doesn't work. If you want to compare India with China which began its reform process 2 decades later than i will compare you to Japan and I can say China is third world.

The difference between China and India is that China ape's the west, India doesn't. See your landscape. You are proud to declare that your modern cities look like european ones. Well, let me tell you this. In this ultra modern cities you will not have places for the poor chinese. I don't think you will have a separate highway for the cycle borne chinese people. You are just fantasising that with development everyone will have a car. In India we are practical, we already talk of talking growth to the villages and providing better living conditions for the poor in cities.

Let me put it this way by an analogy. China is like a kingdom of ants, where the role of every one is predefined and so is the way in which the colony grows. India is less organised and more intutive. Thats why despite 50 years of your so called not working democracry, we are not very far from China.

The same BBC has 100s of articles favoring India as an investment destination so lets not focus on a 3rd party's lip service to understand our realities. Its true that India is behind China but then as I said its unfair to compare India and China because China had a head start 20 years before India. In fact, its a fact to be proud of for India if the giant neighbour is compelled to compare itself to us even though it started much earlier.

Your thinking of applying darwinian theory to society brings out one fundamental flaw in chinese mindset that i have noticed. you believe in "only china". Most chinese are living the dream that somehow 20 years later China will be a superpower ahead of all the other countries in the world, much like US is today.

Darwin talked about evolution. You have failed to realise that. You are just following what west has already shown and now want to repeat the mistakes of west in the 21st century by looking for domination.

India on the other hand talks of growth for all. No wonder US now offers a nuclear deal outside the NPT to india exclusively. West realises that china is like a huge machine but its the emotional quotient that is missing and thats where India fills in the gap.

I would cite the annexation of Tibet by china, anti Japan riots, threats to Taiwan as examples of this "me only" mindset china has. Let me remind you, every one with this mindset has grown like a mushroom but fallen like a meteorite. The last example was Nazi Germany.

They also justified their actions by their self proclaimed "ideals".

[India1989]

Who said India doesn't work. India does work and i think India works really good. If there was any other country and i mean any other country in India's position they would be able to stay united only for 3 years that's it. Or even less then that. Forget developing. They would not be able to stay as a single country.

example, there's no diversity in Europe and still they have broken up so many times. There's more difference between a Punjabi and a Naga then between a British and Russian. India's doing really good.

[Agra]

Neo is quite a gentleman.

I would cite the annexation of Tibet by china, anti Japan riots, threats to Taiwan as examples of this "me only" mindset china has. Let me remind you, every one with this mindset has grown like a mushroom but fallen like a meteorite. The last example was Nazi Germany.
They also justified their actions by their self proclaimed "ideals".

You like to accuse China of annaxaton of Tibet while conveniently forgetting India's annaxation of Sikhim and de facto annaxation of Kashimir. Isn't that cheeky double standard?

I am always amazed at the fact that India could hold together for so long given its diversity. Democracy sometimes works wonders in India.
It may also be due to democracy that you have a weak government unable to carry out any big projects quickly because of some petty concerns.

One thing India did well was the mandatory use of LPG for all city buses and taxis in New Delhi, a major step to lower CO2 emmission. China needs to learn it from India.