Intercaste Marriages

[Nikster]

How can u say that they are not given the primary and seconday eduaction? Infact all govt schools as well as schools funded by govt have provisions that A child from Schedule caste and schedulle tribe can pay half the fees. Then there are pre matric scholarships. And in fact govt schools provide free education along with mid day meals. No school says that if u belong to schedule caste or schedule tribe we will not enroll u. And also they have enough opportunities in the country to study even if they do not have enough money. I again repeat my self ur confusing between poverty and casteism. Not all SC ST people are poor and neither are all so called upper caste people rich.

Infact poor people belonging to general castes do not get these special benefits in education that people from SC ST get.

If you are from India then you very well know that what the government says and what happens on the ground are two very different things. That is why there should be education for almost every village but only 30% of teachers even show up to teach. to say that SCs and STs receive government benefits is also not taking into account the benefits Brahmins and upper castes have received from years of discrimination that have placed them in a position of greater wealth and prestige. By getting government benefits, SCs and STs are getting a little closer to having the same opportunities available to Brahmins.

Also, I never said all of SC and ST are poor nor have I said all Brahmin are rich. But the overwhelming majority of Brahmin's are rich and the overwhelming majority of SCs and STs are poor. That is a fact and cannot be disputed. This must change if India is to prosper.

I also checked ur reference. The first thing it says that the policies of govt should be pro poor and not caste based. Later on some statistics are given for enrollment in higher educations by different classes. I think enrollemnt in higher education is a personal choice. And no body in the country stops u from enrolling. The fact that people often take faked SC ST certificates to enroll in higher education shows that people in general categoy are at a disadvatage vis a vis SC ST students when in comes to higher education.

Please read the article again. It states the the policies of the government should be pro poor AND caste based. Hence, the reservations for OBCs. These are two different problems with a variety of faults and remedies that must be applied independently in order to rectify the problem. Caste discrimination exists and is prevalent. Read the Tehelka article if you need some proof of how caste based discrimination exists. If you know anything about how Muslims are treated then you know religious discrimination also exists. I am all for pro poor policies, but it cannot be denied that there also exists anti caste discrimination that also must be dealt with in a different way to make it more acceptable for SCs and STs to not have to beg for food or drink from another well or be prevented from riding their bicycles through a Brahmin part of a village.

The above para posted by u is absolutely baseless. There are reservations for SC STs in IAS IFS IPS IES services. These are teh highest civil services exams conducted by the govt. Also a student from SC ST is eligible to appear till the age of 30 as against the age bar of 27 for others. Then if u take CA and CS courses. a student from SC ST category have to pay half the fees. In banking exams there are relaxations in age fro SC ST students.

And yes education is available to all in india and caste has nothing to do here. You are talking baselessly as far as educational opportunities goes.

Again, you like to spew off government statistics of what is available, but you fail to take into account the realities on the ground. Even with these reservations for jobs, many are not filled. That is why the number of SCs and STs in these institutions you mention are very low. As I mentioned before, many of the schools have been given free lunches and teachers but only 30% of teachers show up and even fewer lunches are prepared. I have seen this with my own eyes when I went to villages in India to visit my friend who was working for an NGO categorizing caste discrimination in India. It is all written and tabulated. Education opportunities for upper castes is much more prevalent than for lower castes. This is a fact.

If playing robin hood is not a good idea. What else do u expect? What do u think govt and society should do. Dont tell me what is desirable. We all know the problem. Whats the solution??? And why should the govt favour some caste and tribe. If at all something constructive needs to be done it should be based on economic status and not caste.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I was only countering your rhetorical statement "Should we just tax one caste to help another?" No one pays taxes in India so this won't work. I was making fun of your statement but it seems to be a little above your head However, hypothetically speaking, if every Indian did pay taxes I would hope that money would be spent on free education, free healthcare, and free socail programs.

If you want a solution, and what I have stated is only a brief look at what could be done, look to Kerala and how they managed to achieve universal education. Better yet look at Cuba and how they managed to achieve universal free education, helathcare and provide enough food for the entire population even though, per capita, they are just as poor as India and have had similar discriminaory practices against Afro Cubans as we seem to have against SCs and STs. There are many smart people out there and many places from where we can learn how to find a solution to this discrimination.

Again, ignoring caste and concentrating on poverty would not solve the problem because both are intertwined. Caste discrimination leads to poverty. Please don't pretend that the majority of the elites in India are not Brahmin. Can you seriously deny this?

I dont think anyone will throw u out of tata group or brila group or reliance industries or any goddamn co in the country if ur sirname suggests that u belong to SC and ST. I dont deny that some individuals discriminate in their private capacity but thats more of an exception then a rule. And if any gross discrimination is done based on caste, you can approach a court and get that persons life miserable. There are murderers, rapists and corrupt people in the society as well and in large nos. But by quoting a few murders u cant say that this is the country of murderers.

There are many documented incidents of discrimination in the workplace against people of SC and ST origin. It is not an isolated incident but is extremely pervasive. I will try and contact my friend who worked in India documenting Dalit discrimination to see if his organization has anything online. Alternatively, you can look into any study done on SC/ST discrimination for proof that this is not an isolated incident. I have personally seen, with my own eyes, a Brahmin woman walking the street go back home and wash herself because a Dalit's shadow fell on her.

I read ur reference. Two brothers of this guy went out to another village and found another vocation for themselves. So u see the opportunity is there. Its about when u realise that times have changed and i have other options too. We cant change the past of course but we have a system in place at present and thats the only thing i am arguing on.

So your argument is that because two brothers somehow managed to escape this (we must remeber the father and one brother remained in the village) that all is well and there is enough opportunities to escape this? That just shows how skewed your reality is and how much more needs to be done. It is not a question of a few escaping, it is a question fo changing society so this type of discrimination does not exist anymore. The fact that the majority of the poor still disproportionately consists of SC and ST (according to the India Census) goes to show that so much more needs to be done. The fact you were stating that discrimination existed in higher education against non SCs and non STs makes me believe that you are in the camp that states less needs to be done or enough has been done. I am stating that much more needs to be done to break this caste discrimination. Quotas is just one part of the solution, there are many other parts that must be addressed and it must be pursued for many years in order to redress this unjustifiable imbalance. And even if one were Brahmin, just appealing to his or her self interest (if appealing to his or her humanity is not enough), it would be good for India to have wealthier and more educated SCs and STs becasue it would result in greater prospertity and a larger consumer base that would benefit the Brahmin and India.

You gave me a link of the website. I will appreciate if u can give a link to the relevant article.

As I stated I read that in an article many years ago, but for you to claim that the majority of the elites in the country are not Brahmin is either blind neglect of the situation or plain stupidity. In either case, it is inexcusable.

[rohit khaitan]

I am not dividing the country, statistic after statistic and bare bones reality has already divided the country on caste, religious, and other grounds. Every analysis of the situation has consistently shown that the incidence of poverty among SC and ST households is significantly higher than non-scheduled households. Differences in educational attainment explain about one quarter of the poverty gap. Occupational structure strongly matters in determining the poverty gap for both SC and ST, as does differences in returns to individual occupations. This has been related to historic discrimination.

Your number of 80% is incorrect. According to the 1991 census of India, SCs and STs comprise about 16.5 percent and 8.1 percent of India's population but 43.53 percent of India's rural poor. This is not a coincidence but a result of a lack of education, workplace discrimination, and employment discrimination. What I have been trying to say is that simply giving a few seats away at colleges and Universities is not going to tackle the problem, it is only a start. Considering this small amount of redistribution is already receiving so much vociferous opposition, I feel disheartened the situation will ever change. Until it does, India will never be able to reach it's potential because it is excluding a great number of it's people from the opportunity of a better life. If the majority of the people cannot be treated with dignity and lifted out of poverty, then there is no hope for India.

You are not answering my question and just putting emotional stories to divert the issue. I asked u why should the poor who are not SC/ ST be excluded??? Any why should the creamy layer (rich amone the SC/ST) be included????

And u say few seats. Is it Just a few seats? seats as high as 50 percent in most states and 69 percent in tamil nadu are a few seats? If these are few seats why did the supreme court of india set a bar on reservations above 50 percent. And why do our dirty politicians have to introduce amendments after amendments in constitution to have it their way??? Why do they have to put reservation policies in teh 8th schedule. Let it be a legislation that can be openly challenged in the honourable court. Now of course u will say that judges are also brahmins and they are biased. Wont u??

And u keep saying more needs to be done. But dont say what more?? Atleast tell ur expectations in details.

This reverse discrimination argument has been consistently raised by those in power. However, no one is advocating reverse discrimination. It cannot be denied that SCs and STs are already experiencing discrimination in education (with less money in general spent on them), in employement (with less hiring in SC and ST groups), and while employed (being passed over for promotion because of thier caste). These are all backed up by almost every study done on SCs and STs. By providing some seats in higher education for those who have not had the benefits that non STs and SCs have had is not reverse discrimination, it is simply making a slight dent in giving the SCs and STs the same opportunities enjoyed by non SCs and STs. Much more needs to be done to give STs and SCs the same opportunites. A few reservations is only the start. There must be universal education for all castes. There must be blindnes in all employment decisions regardless of caste. Until that time comes it is necessary to provide other means of fighting the culture and systems that perpetuates SC and ST poverty. Reservations and job quotas is but one of those remedies and that is why I am fully for them.

You say its not reverse discrimination. In all premier institutes be it for education or jobs, first the unreserved seats are contested based on merit. That means meritious students from SC/ST also compete for these seats. Then the reserved seats are all given away to SC/ST. As a result the situation in some states is that students from forward classes are inadequately representated as compared to their total population. Is this not reverse discrimination??

And how can u say that equal money is not spend by the govt on education of SC/ST. Does the govt allot separate educational funds based on castes? And what do u mean by less hiring? Does govt say that we will not hire u if ur SC or ST. Or does any company in India say that?

I answered this in the paragraph above.

You didnt answer my question in the above paragraph. Why should a student with 50 percent be preferred over a student with 88 percent just because he s poor or his forefathers were exploited in the past. And why should consideration if any be caste based and not class based?

I don't think you read my paragraph fully. They never accepted the relationship. Both eventually broke up because the family would not accept an African American with their daughter. I was personally disgusted that an Indian family would come to the US, take advantage of all the liberties and civil rights that African Americans fought for all minorities to have, and then treat an African American whose family had lived here for two centuries as if they were beneath them. I have other Indian friends who have experienced the same thing. Another Indian friend of mine had a cousing who married an African American and the entire family disowned her and won't even talk to her. The other point I wanted to make about this story was that now her parents just want her to marry ANY Indian, even an SC or ST or Sikh or Jain. I thought that was interesting. What was even more interesting was that they would never accept a Muslim. This goes to show the amount of religious discrimination that still exists in India.

Its your personal experiences. I also have freinds in US and Uk who say that indians are discriminated against. And even the celebrities in US like angelina jolie and brad pitt who were recently in india and their bodyguards called some local people bloody indians. Again their are phrases like 'indian giver' 'nigger' 'black bastards' which are a hallmark of western thinking. But i think some people are racist everywhere in the world. So u r claim that india is a more racist country is completely biased and malicious.[/quote]

Well, fist off I never said there was no racism in the West. There is untold amount of racism here. Furthermore, I should not have to make a statement to show where I am from because all my arguments are based on facts. However, if you need verification, I am Indian. I was born and raised in India, then I moved to the UK when I was 8 and then I went to high school and University in the US where I live and work. I have experienced the world growing up in many different countries. Although I have travelled much my family are poor economic migrants. I know what life is like to be a poor outsider in the West where i have been beaten going to school and experienced unknown discrimination that I will not get into. Most of my family is in India and I come back every year and constantly keep in touch because that is the place I have always considered home and it will always be my home. I work and put up with this so my family can have a better life in India. It is also why I refuse to give up my Indian citizenship. What I find most disturbing is that no matter what I have gone through in the West I have been treated much better than how I see people in India treat each other. That is why I feel I can speak with more authority on what is happening in India. As for what the British did, do you think how people treat SC and ST and Muslims is any different in India? What i have seen is much worse that what I have experienced in the West. That is why I passionately feel things have to change in India or it will never reach its potential.

You did say in ur earlier posts that american people are cool people and most educated indians believe in caste discriminations.

Its only now that u r saying that u were beaten up and treated badly on ur way to school, but i can assure u that india is different. I dont remember having heard of any incident in india when a school student is beaten up or discriminated against simply based on caste. Even if there would be any its a exception unlike west where it happens so often.Although i agree that there is discrimination in india as in any other country against the minorities but its completely illegal and soceity as a whole has put safeguards for minorities to protect their interests. Govt cannot monitor acts of every individual and one has to fight for his rights. And most of this discrimination is among the poor and uneducated. Your claim that its more among the educated lot is absolutely baseless.

Poor people from other castes have not been discriminated against, and nowhere near the amount of discrimination that is experienced by other groups in India. The fact I have to make this point to such an extent is why I have little hope that things will change in India. Even with the economic boom all of it is concentrated in the rich and upper castes.

Poor people are discriminated against some time or the other in life. Rich are always more powerful and influential. So ur claim that poor people from upper class are better lot is meaningless. Instead of digging the history of every person or class the simple solution is to provide more opportunities to the have nots. Discussing caste and religion only divides the society and paves wave for dirty people to become top most politicians. And its really funny when u say that u will get reservations only if ur forefathers were discriminated against and not because ur poor and disadvantageous.

Your link is not working as i cant open pdf files on my server. Pls provide another link if u have any.

[rohit khaitan]

If you are from India then you very well know that what the government says and what happens on the ground are two very different things. That is why there should be education for almost every village but only 30% of teachers even show up to teach. to say that SCs and STs receive government benefits is also not taking into account the benefits Brahmins and upper castes have received from years of discrimination that have placed them in a position of greater wealth and prestige. By getting government benefits, SCs and STs are getting a little closer to having the same opportunities available to Brahmins.

Also, I never said all of SC and ST are poor nor have I said all Brahmin are rich. But the overwhelming majority of Brahmin's are rich and the overwhelming majority of SCs and STs are poor. That is a fact and cannot be disputed. This must change if India is to prosper.

Ok so u atleast acknowledge that govt gives benefits. In your earlier posts u were saying less money is spend on education of SC/STs.

If only 30 percent teachers show up its because the dirty politicians never shoulder their responsibilities. And these politicians in india are most selected by minorities and poor people from villages. Rich and the middle class in india rarely vote. And you only said that 80 percent rich are brahmins. So why do u select such politicians?? If u select dirty politicians who play caste based politics, this is obviously going to happen.

Please read the article again. It states the the policies of the government should be pro poor AND caste based. Hence, the reservations for OBCs. These are two different problems with a variety of faults and remedies that must be applied independently in order to rectify the problem. Caste discrimination exists and is prevalent. Read the Tehelka article if you need some proof of how caste based discrimination exists. If you know anything about how Muslims are treated then you know religious discrimination also exists. I am all for pro poor policies, but it cannot be denied that there also exists anti caste discrimination that also must be dealt with in a different way to make it more acceptable for SCs and STs to not have to beg for food or drink from another well or be prevented from riding their bicycles through a Brahmin part of a village.

i am copy pasting the first para of the article.

"A combination of a compensatory policy for particular social groups and a pro-poor policy, which must cover all the poor irrespective of caste, religion or gender background, is necessary for inclusiveness in higher education. "

You were saying the students from SC/ ST are at a disadvantage. But u didnt answer why then are people from upper castes making fake SC/ST certificates?? Who would anyone want to be at a disadvantage??

Again, you like to spew off government statistics of what is available, but you fail to take into account the realities on the ground. Even with these reservations for jobs, many are not filled. That is why the number of SCs and STs in these institutions you mention are very low. As I mentioned before, many of the schools have been given free lunches and teachers but only 30% of teachers show up and even fewer lunches are prepared. I have seen this with my own eyes when I went to villages in India to visit my friend who was working for an NGO categorizing caste discrimination in India. It is all written and tabulated. Education opportunities for upper castes is much more prevalent than for lower castes. This is a fact.

First of all the no. of IAS IPS officers or govt officers belonging to SC/ST groups are by no means less in govt sector. I have no online data available to back this claim. So lets make a hypothesis that ur right. IF inspite of all the reservations and benefits if still the seats dont get occupied whos to blame? You have to help yourself first. Even God dont help the one who does not help himself.
And u were saying that all govt jobs provided to SC/ST candidates are menial labour work jobs. What happened to ur claim? Dont speak emotionally. Speak logically.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I was only countering your rhetorical statement "Should we just tax one caste to help another?" No one pays taxes in India so this won't work. I was making fun of your statement but it seems to be a little above your head However, hypothetically speaking, if every Indian did pay taxes I would hope that money would be spent on free education, free healthcare, and free socail programs.

If you want a solution, and what I have stated is only a brief look at what could be done, look to Kerala and how they managed to achieve universal education. Better yet look at Cuba and how they managed to achieve universal free education, helathcare and provide enough food for the entire population even though, per capita, they are just as poor as India and have had similar discriminaory practices against Afro Cubans as we seem to have against SCs and STs. There are many smart people out there and many places from where we can learn how to find a solution to this discrimination

Again, ignoring caste and concentrating on poverty would not solve the problem because both are intertwined. Caste discrimination leads to poverty. Please don't pretend that the majority of the elites in India are not Brahmin. Can you seriously deny this? .

I never advocated robin hood type approach. I was asking ur opinion. I think it went above ur head instead. As for kerala the total percentage of SC/ST and backward classes population put together in that state is only 9 percent if u check the data of past 15 years. So that state can never be a model.
And dont tell me what Cubans did. Tell me what are ur expectations from the society. Dont tell me that more needs to be done. Tell me what needs to be done.

Are majority of elites in India brahmin?? Who are u talking about man. Are birlas, tatas, ambanis, khaitans, ruias brahmins??? I didnt know if they are brahmin. I never cared to find out the caste of a rich man. And did they succeed simply because they belong to some caste?? How funny.

There are many documented incidents of discrimination in the workplace against people of SC and ST origin. It is not an isolated incident but is extremely pervasive. I will try and contact my friend who worked in India documenting Dalit discrimination to see if his organization has anything online. Alternatively, you can look into any study done on SC/ST discrimination for proof that this is not an isolated incident. I have personally seen, with my own eyes, a Brahmin woman walking the street go back home and wash herself because a Dalit's shadow fell on her.

Even if a brahmin woman goes back why do u give a damn to it. Does it matter in any way? Some people are stupid. I have never denied it. But u cant blame the whole society and the system for it. As for ur claims of discriminations at most work places i will wait for ur data.

So your argument is that because two brothers somehow managed to escape this (we must remeber the father and one brother remained in the village) that all is well and there is enough opportunities to escape this? That just shows how skewed your reality is and how much more needs to be done. It is not a question of a few escaping, it is a question fo changing society so this type of discrimination does not exist anymore. The fact that the majority of the poor still disproportionately consists of SC and ST (according to the India Census) goes to show that so much more needs to be done. The fact you were stating that discrimination existed in higher education against non SCs and non STs makes me believe that you are in the camp that states less needs to be done or enough has been done. I am stating that much more needs to be done to break this caste discrimination. Quotas is just one part of the solution, there are many other parts that must be addressed and it must be pursued for many years in order to redress this unjustifiable imbalance. And even if one were Brahmin, just appealing to his or her self interest (if appealing to his or her humanity is not enough), it would be good for India to have wealthier and more educated SCs and STs becasue it would result in greater prospertity and a larger consumer base that would benefit the Brahmin and India.

These two brothers escaped? Or did they go away to find another vocation because they have fundamental right to choose any profession in the country? There s a difference man. Dont look at it with coloured glasses. And we r not discussing individual stories here. We dont live in a perfect world. When we discuss something in a public forum its always a larger picture.

And as for me i dont believe in joining camps and talking non sense. I speak only after weighing things logically. Sometimes i may be wrong. But most of what i say comes from my grey cells and not a sudden rush of testesterone.

As I stated I read that in an article many years ago, but for you to claim that the majority of the elites in the country are not Brahmin is either blind neglect of the situation or plain stupidity. In either case, it is inexcusable.

Hey did i say anything about the caste of rich in india in my earlier posts??

In any case Brahmins in india were never rich. They traditionally lived on offerings made in temples and money made through rituals. And even today i dont think they are the super rich of india. And brahmins are in majority only in tamil nadu. Traditionally and even today there are sub castes like vaishyas and kshatriyas who form the majority population and are into various professions.

[Nikster]

You seem to be very stuck in your ways so I give up trying to show you how much discrimination exists in India. I advise anyone reading this post to go to http://www.dalits.org/ to see the amount of caste discrimination that still exists in India. Caste discrimination is not a mere poverty problem. It is a problem of conscious discrimination in society that takes away a group of people's civil, political, economic, social and cultural rights simply because of the group they are born into. I believe that by bringing these problems to light we are not perpetuating caste discrimination but simply taking the first step in overcoming caste discrimination. For those who need proof of this please read the articles below and go out and search for the numerous NGO and other civil rights groups that are trying to fight casteism and racism, both of which I consider a disease that must be eradicated for the human race to evolve.

BROKEN PEOPLE: Caste Violence Against India’s “Untouchables” available at http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/indi....htm#TopOfPage

A very detailed and thorough Human Rights Watch 1998 report on caste discrimination in India

Growing Violence against Untouchables in India available at http://www.pucl.org/from-archives/Da...l/violence.htm

A look at how caste discrimination is increasing, not decreasing in India.

All human beings are free and equal in dignity and rights available at http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/pe...dy_art01.shtml

A good overview of caste discrimination.

Is there caste-based-discrimination in India? available at http://sujaiblog.blogspot.com/2006/0...ste-based.html

Why Reservations for OBCs Is a Must available at http://www.countercurrents.org/dalit-ravat180406.htm

A good argument for reservations for OBCs

Caste matters in the Indian media available at http://www.hinduonnet.com/2006/06/03...0301841000.htm

a good op ed on why caste diversity is a good thing.

[Nikster]

I also want to add that it is not just me who feels this way. According to the Times of India article below more than half of India believes the caste system is a "barrier to social harmony" and is holding the country back. It appears Indians still seem to have caste firmly on their minds in one way or the other, even though leading sociologists have long argued that urbanisation and industrialisation has helped break down caste-barriers.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mera_Bharat_Mahaan_71_say_theyre_proud_to_be_Indians/articleshow/1560569.cms

[rohit khaitan]

The times of India is the most biased newspaper in the country. The power and the rich can get any article written in this newspaper. So dont take all newspaper reports to be true. And particularly The times of India.

Again I have never denied that there was discrimination in the past and there is discrimination today in the society.

But its limited in some pockets and some sectors of the society. And more importantly the SC/ ST have enough constitutional remedies to fight the menace.

The only thing i want to say is that politicians are making a very big story out of it to get votes. And the foreign media is using it to tarnish the image of my country. So i will oppose every lie that is said on the matter.

And i will also oppose every move by politicians that is unconstitutional and against social justice. One of which is further increase in reservations and particulary because its caste based and not based on economic status of an individual.

[Puneet Sood]

All that the supporters are not telling us that it is the children of the persons who are already in the job are getting job.
For example, the son of an I.A.S. officer belonging to SC will also be eligible to appears as an SC candidate. He will be competing against the fellows (who do not have an access to proper education, money according to the supporters of reservation). So the benefit of reservation will not go to the deserving candidate but the person of high income group belonging to reserved categories.
Please do not say that there are no high income brackets in SCs, OBC and STs. Every body knows it is there.
The problem is that the reference is given of some one else and the benefit goes to another person.
Even then, I will like to say that it will be much better to give the education at the basic level than the reservation at an higher class. But this factor is not on the radar of the reservationists.
The reservation does not provide any solution. It only aggravates the problem. The society is constant being fed the castism by the forms which ask about the caste of a person.
First of all remove these forms. Otherwise the problem would have ended now.
So let us remove reservation and start removing castism thereby.

[Nikster]

Not ALL SC/STs are going to be from the poor and disadvantaged section of society and not all upper castes will be rich. But, in general, that is the case. There will be some SC/STs who are rich and may not need the support, and restricting SC/ST reservations for a family up to two generations may be a way to mitigate against this. However, just read the Human Rights Watch 1998 report on caste discrimination in India at http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/indi....htm#TopOfPage and ask yourself, is this discrimination because of forms that ask about caste or is it societal? If it is societal discrimination then we need to provide support to help counter this bias that is perpetuating low caste poverty.

[rohit khaitan]

Your link is not working.

[sunilkumar]

Hindu society has traditionally been categorized into four classes, called Varnas. It is argued that in ancient times, the Varnas were merely labels based upon occupation (as opposed to the hereditary caste system currently present in India) —

the Brahmins: teachers and priests;
the Kshatriyas: warriors and kings;
the Vaishyas: farmers, merchants, and businessmen; and
the Shudras: servants and labourers.
Hindus and scholars debate whether the caste system is an integral part of Hinduism sanctioned by the scriptures or an outdated social custom. Although the scriptures contain passages that can be interpreted to sanction the Varna system, they contain indications that the caste system is not an essential part of the religion, and both sides in the debate can find scriptural support for their views. The oldest scriptures, the Vedas, place little emphasis on the caste system, mentioning it rarely and in a cursory manner. A verse from the Rig Veda indicates that a person's caste was not necessarily determined by that of his family:

In the Vedic Era, there was no prohibition against the Shudras (which later on became the low-castes) listening to the Vedas or participating in any religious rite, as was the case in the later times.

Mobility and flexibility within the varnas belie allegations of social discrimination in the caste system, as has been pointed out by several sociologists. Several prominent Hindu figures who were born as Shudras became Brahmins through various actions. For example Valmiki, author of the Ramayana, was originally a thief.

Many social reformers, including Mahatma Gandhi and B. R. Ambedkar, criticized caste discrimination. The religious teacher Sri Ramakrishna (1836-1886) taught that "Lovers of God do not belong to any caste . . . . A brahmin without this love is no longer a brahmin. And a pariah with the love of God is no longer a pariah. Through bhakti (devotion to God) an untouchable becomes pure and elevated."

Discrimination based on caste, including untouchability against the so-called low castes, is criminalized by the Indian Constitution.


Untouchability refers to the social practice of ostracizing a (usually) minority endogamous group by regarding them as "ritually polluted" and segregating them from the mainstream by social custom or legal mandate. Prominent examples of this practice include the ostracization of the Dalits and "Arzal" castes in India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh, the practice of Apartheid in South Africa , the segregation and discrimination of the al-Akdham in Yemen, and the Japanese Burakumin undercastes

[Puneet Sood]

Not ALL SC/STs are going to be from the poor and disadvantaged section of society and not all upper castes will be rich. But, in general, that is the case. There will be some SC/STs who are rich and may not need the support, and restricting SC/ST reservations for a family up to two generations may be a way to mitigate against this. However, just read the Human Rights Watch 1998 report on caste discrimination in India at http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/indi....htm#TopOfPage and ask yourself, is this discrimination because of forms that ask about caste or is it societal? If it is societal discrimination then we need to provide support to help counter this bias that is perpetuating low caste poverty.

These forms are hell bent on reminding of the castes of the people. Most of the job opportunities are in the urban area. Had the reservation not been there at least the problem of castism in the urban cities. Remember, till 1991 only SCs and STs were considered something out of sync. No body bothered about the castes which belonged to OBC. But thanks to reservation these castes have also become 'bechara'.
It has just become the craze to be counted as backward due to this reservation policy.
Had the reservation not been there the society would have been more caste free.

[sunilkumar]

The Topic is Intercaste Marriage ... I am hindu Brahmin... I had not got any reliable match for me from my religion or caste....

thing is .... how much rich you are matters for gal and for boys how much she is beautiful .... & that is the base....

Lets dont waste time on discussing on such things... you can have servey ask boys by showing them 10 Pic of gal which one will u prefer to marry, also tell them about money what she is earning ,,, boy will go for beautiful gal.

And in case of Gal .... she will go for boy those who are earning more... and some what decent looking ....

Advice for Boys==> Money had power to catch gal for you