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Incredible India: for Neo's eyes only (be prepared for a shock)

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  • Incredible India: for Neo's eyes only (be prepared for a shock)

    Here is a wake-up post for Neo who has such an inflated view of himself as an elite of India (a caste Hindu?) and who has spit out so much dirt and filth against China.

    Dalit oppression

    Yes, India has had a Dalit president and now a COJ. So what? No differenct for those miserable beings who, like it or not, are also fellow Indians of Neo:



    Bharosiram worked in as an agricultural harvester for a caste Hindu landlord. The landlord paid him only in cheap corn liquor, knowing that Bharosiram was a Dalit and would find it difficult to get work elsewhere. Bharosiram became a chronic alcoholic, and one day set fire to himself after a serious argument with his wife. He now has permanent 3rd degree burns over 90% of his body.




    Rape Victim

    Rakshadevi is 5 years old. In November 2005, she was lying in her family hut, while her parents worked in the local fields. A caste Hindu man from the neighbouring village entered her Dalit village, took her from her cot to a local temple, and raped her brutally. Her internal organs are so badly damaged that she has had to have several operations in order to reroute her utinary tract to emerge from the side of her abdomen. 6 months later, the police have not made any arrests - despite the identity of the criminal being known to Rakshadevi and her family. Atrocities like this against Dalits are often ignored or treated as extremely low priority by the police.




    Living outcastes

    Dalit slums are invariably the worst parts of any indian city; they are rarely recognised as formal settlements by the government and so lack basic humanitarian services. There is no drainage, no running water, no waste disposal and no legal means of forcing the government to take action.




    Discriminative discipline

    Government schools around India promise open acceptance for all students, but in reality many teachers refuse to teach Dalit children. They cite them as 'unworthy of learning' or a 'waste of teacher time'. Even if they are accepted, Dalit children are not given equal opportunities in many schools. In the photo, left, Dalit children are being denied lunch at a public school in Bihar.
    At least seven Dalit teachers have been transferred in Gujarat’s Surendranagar district for objecting to segregation of upper- and lower-caste students during mid-day meals in some schools.

    Now upper-caste parents in other villages are using the threat of transfer to keep Dalit teachers from opposing the practice.

    ‘‘During training, we are taught to treat every student the same irrespective of caste or religion, but here it is not so,’’ said Girishbhai Wadher, a Dalit headmaster who was transferred from the primary school in Bhojpari village to one in Mehindad, and then to one in Kabran. Wadher, who joined service three years ago, said the discrimination was not so rampant or visible when he joined three years ago.

    Now I live in US and kind of not seeing the dalit discrimination much. I interact with people of upper caste communities on a day to day basis, some times I still can feel the hatred they have towards the dalits (who are fellow indians). Should I conclude this is general human nature that one hates the other and try to opress others. What is the education that we were taught teaching us, to discriminate against the fellow Indians, forget indians, how can you discriminate against fello human being. I guess I am kind of feeling hypocratic when I am writing this, b'cos I too show the tendencies of this nature some times. I don't know when this dirty Indian minds are going to get cleaned up and be able to accept the whole indians under the same roof and provide equal opportunity. Dr. Ambedkar has done a great job through providing Indian Constitution and we need a Martin Luther King to eradicate this syndrome. I wonder even a Martin Luther King can bring change in India, well may be another Gandhi, and I really wonder whether another Gandhi can ever raise in India. I don't see any hope, god give us some hope.


    ----------------

    Neo: Democracy or hypocracy?


    You asked for that.
    Last edited by Agra; 01-10-2007, 04:39 AM.

  • #2
    Who are the Dalit People?

    The Dalit people of India have been the most widely oppressed caste for more than three thousand years. Indian Dalits comprise nearly 1/4 of the total population, a massive 250 million men, women, and children. Dalits are considered the "outcasts" of Indian society - the "untouchables", those the Hindu scriptures call the "unborn" - translated: it would be better if they had never been born.

    Dalits are denied access to public wells, public parks, basic medical services, and education. Many restaurants even use drinking glasses reserved only for Dalits. The ruling caste tells them they are Hindu, yet they are denied access to the temples, cannot become temple priests, and are even prohibited from reading the Hindu scriptures. Seventy percent of Dalits live below the poverty line. Only 10% of Dalit women can read and write, and are often sold into bonded prostitution.

    The caste system is an integral part of Indian society dating back to the time of the Aryan invaders to India. The Hindu religion sanctioned the caste system. Caste is considered worse than racism by the Dalits. Dalits across the nation, however, have experienced an awakening and are now demanding equal human rights and dignity. They believe rejecting the Hindu caste system and turning to an ideology of spiritual freedom and acceptance, and getting an education are the keys to finding liberation.

    Can an India with a caste system be called a modern India?
    Last edited by Agra; 01-10-2007, 04:52 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Very clever tactics by Agra to divert attention from the misdeeds of his government. any educated person will understand the difference between crimes committed by a person or persons and those committed by a government.

      in india the government makes provisions for dalits, gives them reservations, they have recourse to law if someone tortures them.

      what do poor people do in china where its the government that is criminal?
      are u able to make the distinction between social evils and organised governmental crime? if not i think its because of the red education u have.

      i ll give an example. the blacks in US are not discriminated by the government of US but there are some whites who still do that. can u call US a bad country because of that? No.

      The biggest proof of a country being fair to its citizens is how it treats them not how some citizens treat others. on that count, i have no doubts while saying that ur country is ruled by barbarians like nazis.

      thats the difference between india and china. ask these to the mothers of the students who died in tienamann square and u ll may be understand what i am talking about.

      people like u who are well to do in china and whose 3 generations have not uttered a word against atrocities committed by ur government against ur fellow citizens are the worst hypcrite.

      in my country, oppressed people can go to court. how many of ur countrymen even get a chance to sue the government?
      I 'll show u a new world!

      Comment


      • #4
        It is not a big deal if there is proverty in a country.
        India has proverty, China has it, so does U.S.
        The only thing we need to concern is that we should provide equal chance and fair play to every one.

        Just image that once you are lower caste, your son will be lower caste, your grandson will be lower caste too. I guess there are not many ways to change your caste.

        Btw, let me tell you one thing, the GDP per captial of my hometown(10 million residents) in China is around $10,000USD,PPP up to $50,000 USD. Even the poorest people in my hometown have a better life than average Indian people.

        Originally posted by Neo
        Very clever tactics by Agra to divert attention from the misdeeds of his government. any educated person will understand the difference between crimes committed by a person or persons and those committed by a government.

        in india the government makes provisions for dalits, gives them reservations, they have recourse to law if someone tortures them.

        what do poor people do in china where its the government that is criminal?
        are u able to make the distinction between social evils and organised governmental crime? if not i think its because of the red education u have.

        i ll give an example. the blacks in US are not discriminated by the government of US but there are some whites who still do that. can u call US a bad country because of that? No.

        The biggest proof of a country being fair to its citizens is how it treats them not how some citizens treat others. on that count, i have no doubts while saying that ur country is ruled by barbarians like nazis.

        thats the difference between india and china. ask these to the mothers of the students who died in tienamann square and u ll may be understand what i am talking about.

        people like u who are well to do in china and whose 3 generations have not uttered a word against atrocities committed by ur government against ur fellow citizens are the worst hypcrite.

        in my country, oppressed people can go to court. how many of ur countrymen even get a chance to sue the government?
        Last edited by googleabcd; 01-10-2007, 10:54 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          neo himself is a dalit.

          he said: on internet, nobody know you are a dog. As a dalit in the world of reality, he is trying to claim his dignity on the virtue world of internet. hehe...
          neo, go ahead, don't panic...

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Neo
            Very clever tactics by Agra to divert attention from the misdeeds of his government. any educated person will understand the difference between crimes committed by a person or persons and those committed by a government.

            in india the government makes provisions for dalits, gives them reservations, they have recourse to law if someone tortures them.

            what do poor people do in china where its the government that is criminal?
            are u able to make the distinction between social evils and organised governmental crime? if not i think its because of the red education u have.

            i ll give an example. the blacks in US are not discriminated by the government of US but there are some whites who still do that. can u call US a bad country because of that? No.

            The biggest proof of a country being fair to its citizens is how it treats them not how some citizens treat others. on that count, i have no doubts while saying that ur country is ruled by barbarians like nazis.

            thats the difference between india and china. ask these to the mothers of the students who died in tienamann square and u ll may be understand what i am talking about.

            people like u who are well to do in china and whose 3 generations have not uttered a word against atrocities committed by ur government against ur fellow citizens are the worst hypcrite.

            in my country, oppressed people can go to court. how many of ur countrymen even get a chance to sue the government?
            When 1/4 or 250 million Dalits are discriminated against by the rest of the population, it can not be brushed off as a problem between some citizens. The hypocrocy of Indians like Neo is that they show off various nice laws in favor of Dalits while in reality Neo and his likes harbour deep-rooted disgust for their Dalit countrymen who have suffered the kind of discrimination even worse than racism. Through its own inaction and actions (as shown by police routinely turning a deaf ear to pleas of Dalit victims), your government has become an accomplice in the barbaric abuse of Dalits.

            China has an authoritantian government which has its strengths and weaknesses. When the system goes bad, as it did in 1989 Tian An Men incident, it would kill innocent people in order to maintain the regime and to avoid civil strife..

            However, most of the time, the authoritarian system of China has proved efficient in achieving growth and development targets. Even your embassy staff in Beijing preferred China's system to the lame-duck democracy of India. Of course, Neo does not want to believe that. Neo lives in his own world.

            Democracy will prevail when the economy has been adequately developed, as is the case of Sount Korea and Singapore. Democracy means nothing to millions of wreched Dalits in today's India. Do you need more proof of that?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Agra
              When 1/4 or 250 million Dalits are discriminated against by the rest of the population, it can not be brushed off as a problem between some citizens. The hypocrocy of Indians like Neo is that they show off various nice laws in favor of Dalits while in reality Neo and his likes harbour deep-rooted disgust for their Dalit countrymen who have suffered the kind of discrimination even worse than racism. Through its own inaction and actions (as shown by police routinely turning a deaf ear to pleas of Dalit victims), your government has become an accomplice in the barbaric abuse of Dalits.
              this is what u believe agra. sorry to disappoint u but i don't believe in caste system or racism in any form. my best friend is a dalit and for all this talk of discrimination u say about, let me enlighten u to the fact that we studied at the same engineering college under similar opportunities even though economically his family was better off than mine. we stayed in the same hostel room and our friendship has lasted more than 10 years now. discrimination still exists no doubt but not supported by law for sure. this incident u cited is not about dalit's suffering its about police's incompetence. many of the police officers themselves are dalits due to the reservation system. i am in favor of social equality irrespective of caste, race or religion and reservations based on economic conditions but not caste.

              Originally posted by Agra
              China has an authoritantian government which has its strengths and weaknesses. When the system goes bad, as it did in 1989 Tian An Men incident, it would kill innocent people in order to maintain the regime and to avoid civil strife..
              finally, someone who has the guts to call it a massacre. good that u guys are speaking up now. such acts are a shame for a modern society just like the caste system. no government- democratic or communist should engage in such things

              Originally posted by Agra
              However, most of the time, the authoritarian system of China has proved efficient in achieving growth and development targets. Even your embassy staff in Beijing preferred China's system to the lame-duck democracy of India. Of course, Neo does not want to believe that. Neo lives in his own world.

              Democracy will prevail when the economy has been adequately developed, as is the case of Sount Korea and Singapore. Democracy means nothing to millions of wreched Dalits in today's India. Do you need more proof of that?
              if u read some of my earliest post, i wrote this exact thing. by the time democracy will come to china, communism would have served its purpose of development and i appreciate that.
              democracy is definitely slower than a iron fist rule but it has its own advantages. for eg, its impossible for me to imagine not being able to criticise my government publicly (may be things are different now). i can't live in a country that only allows 20 foreign movies in theatres per year and where media is severly regulated.
              i was not born in a elite family but democracy provided my enough opportunities to reach a respectable position in society. dalits need to put their act together too. i definitely don't believe that anyone should be spoon fed in society except the old citizens and physically challenged. dalits have to study, compete and do what millions of their brothers have done (my friend, the president and Chief justice of india's SC are examples). for people who expect a government to change their fate over nite, it will never happen. it is those that i call parasites.
              what bigger proof of the greatness of democracy could it be that india's constitution was framed by B.R. Ambedkar, a great scholar and intellectual and btw did u know- he too was a dalit from a very poor family!

              don't assume things and argue for the sake of argument my chinese friends. know india better, u are totally biased towards seeing only side of the coin.
              I 'll show u a new world!

              Comment


              • #8
                democracy does not suit india. because for developping countries, the most important thing is efficiency.

                for non-imperial nations or islands, all those developped are non-democratic. see Singapore, Taiwan (1949--1980), S-korea (1945-1975), they are all what you called iron fist countries.

                on the otherhand india, phillipine, south america banana countries and most african countries are democratic, but they are all staggering in muddy of poverty.

                wake up, childish fan of democracy , you are hopelessly cheated and brainwashed by the west.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Neo
                  this is what u believe agra. sorry to disappoint u but i don't believe in caste system or racism in any form. my best friend is a dalit and for all this talk of discrimination u say about, let me enlighten u to the fact that we studied at the same engineering college under similar opportunities even though economically his family was better off than mine. we stayed in the same hostel room and our friendship has lasted more than 10 years now. discrimination still exists no doubt but not supported by law for sure. this incident u cited is not about dalit's suffering its about police's incompetence. many of the police officers themselves are dalits due to the reservation system. i am in favor of social equality irrespective of caste, race or religion and reservations based on economic conditions but not caste.
                  The Dalits you cited are more exceptions than rules. It is the mentality of the ornidary caste hindus combined with government incompetence which has caused so much suffering to Dalits.

                  Originally posted by Neo
                  finally, someone who has the guts to call it a massacre. good that u guys are speaking up now. such acts are a shame for a modern society just like the caste system. no government- democratic or communist should engage in such things
                  This is no big deal. China is more open than you have imagined. You should try to jump out of your self-imposed well and see China for yourself.

                  Originally posted by Neo
                  if u read some of my earliest post, i wrote this exact thing. by the time democracy will come to china, communism would have served its purpose of development and i appreciate that.
                  democracy is definitely slower than a iron fist rule but it has its own advantages. for eg, its impossible for me to imagine not being able to criticise my government publicly (may be things are different now). i can't live in a country that only allows 20 foreign movies in theatres per year and where media is severly regulated.
                  It is a pity that your ideas have been lost in the dirt and filth you have stirred up (almost a one-man show now). Why are your countrymen keeping a distance from you?
                  I can not live in a country that condones oppression of lower classes.

                  Originally posted by Neo
                  dalits need to put their act together too. i definitely don't believe that anyone should be spoon fed in society except the old citizens and physically challenged. dalits have to study, compete and do what millions of their brothers have done (my friend, the president and Chief justice of india's SC are examples). for people who expect a government to change their fate over nite, it will never happen. it is those that i call parasites.
                  what bigger proof of the greatness of democracy could it be that india's constitution was framed by B.R. Ambedkar, a great scholar and intellectual and btw did u know- he too was a dalit from a very poor family!
                  It is a matter of perception towards Dalits. Despite attempts, although symbolic, to improve the lot of Dalits, millioins of Dalits are born inferior and are denied access to many things. Exceptions can not be used to cover up de facto oppression.

                  Originally posted by Neo
                  don't assume things and argue for the sake of argument my chinese friends. know india better, u are totally biased towards seeing only side of the coin.
                  ????

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Efficiency is important not only to developeing countries but also to developed cuntries.
                    My view point is:Every country need to find a suitble way which is in favor of the country.But there is no need to have a very sharp cutting edge between democracy and ditactorship. They should merge to each other.
                    So there is no need to use the good points of democracy to attack ditactorship and no need to use the good points of communism to attack democracy .Such kind of attacking only shows the poor understanding of democracy and communism.It is people themself limited them to only absolute democracy and only absolute communism.
                    China and india are all seeking for a suitable system to help the development. But the suitable system only workes on specific situation.People should keep adjusting the system to fit the changing situation.Hundreds years ago who could imagine democracy and communism,so now can you imagine what other theroies will come up in next few hundreds years?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Agra
                      The Dalits you cited are more exceptions than rules. It is the mentality of the ornidary caste hindus combined with government incompetence which has caused so much suffering to Dalits.
                      what makes u think these are exceptions? u expect a 100% turn around in a span of 50 years? let me tell u this. developed nations like US had racism as a problem till 1970s. It was through government sponsored legislations that they finally got equal rights. social bias exists even today in US but not at the behest of government. india put equality as a fundamental point in the constitution. social change is almost always driven by governmental initiative. look at china. it was nothing till the communist came to power and forced the country to a better path.

                      This is no big deal. China is more open than you have imagined. You should try to jump out of your self-imposed well and see China for yourself.
                      china is open as long as u don't raise a voice of dissent. u want me to put posts about how dissent incurs a severe backlash from the regime?


                      It is a pity that your ideas have been lost in the dirt and filth you have stirred up (almost a one-man show now). Why are your countrymen keeping a distance from you?
                      I can not live in a country that condones oppression of lower classes.
                      i was replying to filth by filth. i was not the one who initiated it. what countrymen? who else is posting on this forum ? as i told u this topic is just 4 chinese and 2 indians, me and indian1989.
                      everyone has his own reasons to not live in a place. for me for eg., the ruling principle is never visit a islamic ruled or communist ruled state because both are against fundamental human principle of freedom.

                      It is a matter of perception towards Dalits. Despite attempts, although symbolic, to improve the lot of Dalits, millioins of Dalits are born inferior and are denied access to many things. Exceptions can not be used to cover up de facto oppression.
                      obviously as an outsider u have no idea of the things ur talking about. thats not a surprise but i find it hypocrisy that u fringe at the mention of things about china that show u in a poor light.

                      ????[/QUOTE]
                      I 'll show u a new world!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        New Delhi: As more skeletons and human remains continued to be unearthed from the house of horrors in Nithari on Thursday, the Supreme Court for the first time commented on the issue and blamed police inaction for the gory massacre of at least 17 women and children.


                        The apex court, while delivering a landmark ruling on police reforms, said that the killings could have been averted had the state government shown willingness to bring about police reforms.


                        "If checks and balances were there, Nithari would not have happened," a Bench headed by Chief Justice Y K Sabharwal was quoted by PTI as saying.


                        Strongly advocating the case for the urgent need of radical police reforms, the Bench - comprising of Justices C K Thakker and R V Raveendran - pointed out reasons for the mounting crime rates in India. "One problem in this country has been reluctance to register FIR and cases as this would reflect that the state's rime rates is going up,” they said.



                        The issue came up when counsel for Uttar Pradesh and Bihar, Rajeev Dhawan, who was explaining about the prevalent system of selection and appointment of the senior police officers, talked about it.


                        He pointed out that six officers were suspended by the state government in wake of the incident.


                        The statement assumed significance in the light of the apex court’s specific directions to state governments to implement police reforms in four weeks’ time.


                        One of the most important directions was to make police force more efficient has been to separate law and order from investigation wing.


                        The court by its September 22, 2006, has also directed to make policy for the selection and fixing the minimum two years tenure for the DGP and other senior police officers.

                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Social change driven by governmental / judicial activism. hope this examples help u understand what i mean
                        I 'll show u a new world!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          hey i agree those things are present in India. fights do happen.

                          lots of slums in India.

                          atleast we agree that there are bad things too and if not someone then most people try to improve it.

                          you guys hide China's bad things and don't talk about it. So yeah should know the difference.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The Dalit phenomemon borders on racism and calss oppression, unworthy of the name of the biggest democracy in the world and depriving India of moral high ground.

                            Will your government also tell its people the trueth about the cause of 1962 war?

                            We also talk about the bad things of China, by the way. Lots of complaints and gripes on Chinese forums, but not yet to the extent of total freedom of speech.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Agra
                              The Dalit phenomemon borders on racism and calss oppression, unworthy of the name of the biggest democracy in the world and depriving India of moral high ground.

                              Will your government also tell its people the trueth about the cause of 1962 war?

                              We also talk about the bad things of China, by the way. Lots of complaints and gripes on Chinese forums, but not yet to the extent of total freedom of speech.
                              We all know the truth about India. We know that many classes face opression and we also know that we lost the war in 1962. Our government doesn't hide anything from us. I think it's time that your government tell you that China started the 1962 war.

                              Comment

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